Open up cops to PKs | Witsec rework | Mega suggestion

[KingJewMonaclu]

Opening PKs On Cops, witsec changes:

Right now, as it stands, there’s no recourse for police. Oftentimes, from what I’ve seen, the DAs office is unable to prosecute officers for purposes of maintaining the peace.
IA, is often unwilling, because they think it should be a legal issue, or they’re friends so they get a slap on the wrist. Or sometimes nothing happens at all. And then good cops, often are fired. It’s a crack in the system that we’ve seen for a while, and the voices of the community have gotten larger asking for something to be done.

To have some kind of recourse as a criminal. As a criminal, all you can do is watch as detectives, or other officers, blow through your entire organization, and go really overly hard on your organization in order to get whatever victory they have in mind. There’s nothing to be done. Typically, even if you find the detective, they’re placed inside the PD which is unraidable, and the only people willing to risk their job are usually conflict locked from doing so.

So, detectives don’t get killed. They don’t usually get fired. They never get prosecuted. Same goes for every bureau, really. But Detectives are the current complaint of the community.

What I propose, is finally opening up the window to actually pking cops. We need to loosen the rules surrounding cops being killed, and with that enter into actual RP. Now, there obviously needs to be restrictions, because obviously we want cops to be able to do their jobs and target illegal activities. However, there should be a limit.

For instance, an orchestrator sends a UC into your faction. The UC escapes, and gets locked in the PD. You know who is running the operation, it’s some higher ranking detective. You can’t get to the UC, as they’re locked up. Soon, they’ll disappear.

Open the door to killing the orchestrator. Require the PD to do some really great maneuvering and have to witsec the orchestrator too.

This will provide an ample cooldown, so when a faction gets hit, you’re not in a situation where multiple factions are getting hit at once, because the orchestrator has to disappear. 

Furthermore, open the window to raids on the PD to kill these people. Obviously, it’s almost impossible to find someone who would be able to let you in, because even if you get let in you’re gonna have to start killing cops and it is considered a raid. I’d say, if HC is being targeted in a faction, allow for MAIN CHARACTERS (verified active players as well), be able to raid the PD when the orchestrator/UC is online in order to pk them. This should be done with UA APPROVAL. Pre-screened individuals who are partaking in this.

The risk will lie in this kind of operation. You can kill one operation against your organization, but you naturally open the door to retaliation from the remaining individuals in the Detectives/PD. believe that it’s imperative to outline exactly what would constitute approval of this kind of operation. I’ve designed them such:

Expansion of an initial operation (i.e. attempted to gather even more evidence by sending another person in, trying to find ways to seize properties that aren’t directly involved in the crime, trying to harass them, having people constantly overwatching them, etc. Anything that continues to occur after a UC is pulled out, or a case is started. You better get your information all at once, lest you end up at risk as a detective.)

Attempt to take all properties. If an organization only has one property, that is the lifeline of the organization. It’s imperative that they’re able to keep that. Lest they have to pay 10m+ to try and get it back, and that usually requires going to daddy faction for a loan, putting them in a predicament. If they have 2 properties, and one is being attempted to be seized, sure. If both, let the raid happen. Worth noting this does NOT include individual rented rooms. Let the detectives blow through those, as they’re just returned pretty quickly.

Attempt to harass, further gather evidence blatantly. If your initial operation concludes, i.e. criminal charges are brought, and you go into double dip and it's discovered, or they realize when more charges are added against more people, let the raid happen.

Don targeted, second targeted, or more than 2 members of HC. If the don gets charges, let the raid happen. Second in command, let the raid happen. If more than 2 members of general HC are targeted, let the raid happen, let them have their chance to kill them.

The investigation intends to seize cash reserves. Specifically cash. If they want to touch the faction funds, that's life changing enough that they may want to take the risk. Let the raid happen.

The investigation brings charges against more than 12 people. This is, for a lot of factions, VERY game changing. Some of y'all are struggling. If the investigation, like a warrant wildfire, hits 13 people, let the raid happen.

Threats from the police. If someone comes to threaten you to comply and give someone up, let the threat giver be set active and pked. Raid optional.

Now, with this in mind, it’s incredibly important to set ground rules for the responsibilities of the cops.

If you’re the cop(s) in question, being targeted you must:

• Log on for 30 minutes a day, at any time of the day. If there’s more than one cop being greenlit for death, they must both be in city at the same exact time, for the same duration
•  
• You must be inside the PD. Anywhere.
•  
• You can have as much firepower as possible; but if schedules don't align, you’re going to have to hope you can skate by for that 30 minutes.
•  
• You can log out at the 30 minute mark, UNLESS there is an active raid into the PD. You must check with staff to see if it is clear for you to leave. If there’s an active raid, you must wait.
•  
• You may not miss more than one day in a row, WITH UA approval. You’ll be screened to make sure you’re not playing other games.
•  
• You will be char locked to your PD char. You can’t play any other characters during this time.

If you’re the assaulters in question, you will:

• Be given 1 week to successfully do this. If the case is successful against you, you will be given an infinite window to kill the people involved, unless they get witsec, to which you will have to prove they’re the same person ICly.
•  
• You must identify the orchestrator. Either by confirmation from police officers who are willing to give you that information, or by figuring it out on your own in a way that UA deems reasonable, accurate and IC.
•  
• You will be given an infinite amount of raid attempts during that week. But they’ll only be on for a 30 minute window, so you’ll have to wait around ready to suit up. After 1 week, your raid permission ends.
•  
• You will all be pk active while attempting raids.
•  
• If you are a ranking member, you will not be able to return into your original role. You will start as an associate.

If you are the staff member, you will:

• Verify all characters
•  
• Set all characters pk active to the NYPD
•  
• Oversee all times that they’re online. If they want to be online at 3 am, someone has to be online at 3 am to oversee.
•  
• Verify ability to leave for the officers (i.e. no raid going on)
•  
• Verify all information is true, accurate, and IC that leads to PK activity on officer(s).

Workarounds to consider:

Chances are, if this goes into effect, the PD will try to hide these things. Via working with the DAs office. This should be extended to the DAs office - IF - the individuals who are looking for the orchestrator threaten the ADA/DA/whatever who’s running the case in court to give up the information, and they refuse to after 3 violent and clear threats. (One, if they refuse to log on ever again) (Also worth noting - they don't log on, so an in-game pager will suffice if the faction uses resources in the PD to get their ssns), then allow a pk on that ADA/DA/whatever. Let the prosecutors choose who’s getting witsec’d - the orchestrator or them.

See next page for more

Altered Cop Rules

Make witsec have to take place IC and actually conclude.

What do I mean by this?

Well, right now the way witsec works is you log on, you’re already in a backroom in the PD, you get your name changed and your faction changed and you immediately log out.

I say, make them stay online for 1 hour after a witsec, to allow for individuals to either A. kill them or B. identify them successfully.

Furthermore, make them actually leave the PD, and get to a “Safehouse”, like the governors mansion. Then, if they’re bringing driven, their convoy can be intercepted, cops shot, individual identified or kidnapped. Then, they need to stay online for 1 hour after they arrive at the “Safehouse”.

What would successful identification look like, in this situation?
It would be that an individual(s) gain entry or intercept the convoy, and lay eyes on the guy. If this is achieved, the witsec’d individual cannot be witsec’d again at all. They have to remain that identity and risk death every day.

[String]

+1

[Kyta]

+1

[peeboy]

+1

[Yoon]

+1 fuck 12

[Logan]

Alot of yap but idk what you mean with the IA shit cause I personal charge cops if they commit a crime where I actually have evidence. The main problem with reports is people either don't give actual clips or IC clips. We can't do much if reporters don't actually give something to act on

[RevampedRebel]

There's no way this would work with the current system with how charid's work (ID's in general even) and the fact that this would effectively open the door to wiping out an already dwindling bureau consistently hampered by ua AND the da's office which suffers similarly. It's impossible to make an adequate witsec attempt with the current system. It'd be the final nail in the coffin for legalrp.

[ONeil]

-1 Allowing ADAs and DAs to be PKd for doing their job or threatened into corruption is a terrible idea. You will kill legal RP with this idea. 

[KingJewMonaclu]

8 hours ago, RevampedRebel said:

There's no way this would work with the current system with how charid's work (ID's in general even) and the fact that this would effectively open the door to wiping out an already dwindling bureau consistently hampered by ua AND the da's office which suffers similarly. It's impossible to make an adequate witsec attempt with the current system. It'd be the final nail in the coffin for legalrp.

You have no imagination. No hope. 

 

This is very easily doable and navigatable. It just requires actual effort

[KingJewMonaclu]

8 hours ago, ONeil said:

-1 Allowing ADAs and DAs to be PKd for doing their job or threatened into corruption is a terrible idea. You will kill legal RP with this idea. 

Yeah that is a footnote of potential, typically these suggestions are taking in partiality

[KingJewMonaclu]

8 hours ago, Logan said:

Alot of yap but idk what you mean with the IA shit cause I personal charge cops if they commit a crime where I actually have evidence. The main problem with reports is people either don't give actual clips or IC clips. We can't do much if reporters don't actually give something to act on

Yeah but then the DAs office usually has to deal with politics and usually doesnt charge them unless they're a low ranking officer, so that doesnt really do much

[V1KING]

+1

[Kewl]

 -1

35% of the suggestion is good in concept, but 5% of it is good in practice. I don't think the problem is the rules around these situations; I think it's the fact that factions have been operating the same way for the past how many years and aren't coming up with new, innovative ways to deal with these problems before they arise.

Also, thanks for the laugh regarding what you said about the lack of prosecution and firing cops.

Police are supposed to be a threat, not an annoyance; they keep factions in check.

[KingJewMonaclu]

3 hours ago, Kewl said:

 -1

35% of the suggestion is good in concept, but 5% of it is good in practice. I don't think the problem is the rules around these situations; I think it's the fact that factions have been operating the same way for the past how many years and aren't coming up with new, innovative ways to deal with these problems before they arise.

Also, thanks for the laugh regarding what you said about the lack of prosecution and firing cops.

Police are supposed to be a threat, not an annoyance; they keep factions in check.

bro do you realize how long it took them to fire me 

[Kewl]

4 minutes ago, KingJewMonaclu said:

bro do you realize how long it took them to fire me 

as the person trying to fire you multiple times, it wasn't due to any of the reasons you claim are why we don't fire as many people as you think we should

[xXmrburnsXx]

-1 by far. (I know I am biased as hell here, however I want to try and dissect this.)

 

The suggestion when first read makes sense in a whiteboard perspective. Opening the door to more action against the PD would make the PD on more equal footing within the city as a whole.

 

We're missing the other ways the PD, especially the Detectives Bureau and DOJ, is held back. Its already an underdog fight.

Legal RP is a very slow, meticulous process, with many, many moving parts not really visible to much outside the PD.

For example, Kirov Bratva takedown last year was a six month operation. It involved many people, including UCs, day in and out to find evidence, develop strategies on taking down individuals using such evidence, and then.... the doorkicks and property seizures, etc. It looks like maybe a 1-2 person job from the outside, but inside it can be over twenty people in some cases.

Once the doors are kicked and charges are filed, months of work gets put into motion.  This is part of the reason why on an average basis, organization charges/takedowns happen roughly 2-4 times a year. They're not exactly simple find, point, charge, PK sorta things.

 

This process starts with a slew of both written, and unwritten rules both IC and OOC. From faction consideration, operation planning (as strategies have to constantly be changed and adapted on the fly) , and execution involves many manhours of work, before any actual investigation even starts. Many times, UA tickets are opened for consultation before an operation is even attempted because if successful, we know the first thing that will happen will be a UA ticket being filed, trying to overturn it.

 

This is not even bringing up the concerns that many people have before even considering becoming or assisting UCs. We have had people threatened OOC, harassed, and blacklisted from practically every faction in town because of their choice to try going UC. The risks are present, even if the official stance is that according to the rules, they are currently lower-risk. 

 

There is already avenues for non-DA/DOJ or even non-PD characters have for going after potential dirty cops. An entire court system is present, ready, and willing (honestly begging) for civil cases to try and litigate issues. For criminal charges, if a dirty cop is exposed in a criminal case? The case is likely to be tossed via an impeached and shamed witness. The avenues are present, however are seldomly used. In the scenario of the 13 arrest warrants above? MAYBE 1 or 2 go to trial. 10 will delete their characters, 1 will just never get back in the server ever again, and the 1 or 2 going to trial are usually lower ranking, making the case more procedural rather than a true fight.

 

As the guy who has been helping run the Detectives honestly for far too long, I am aware of the odd balance the bureau has on the city. Go too hard, and the main purpose of the game is moot. Make it so that being a detective is a constant liability? The already strained bureau will likely collapse, and the PD in general will become nothing more than meter maids and whiteshirts who find a gun at Probationary to shoot people. I should know. Typhon servers allowed for PKing detectives and easier rules on raids. It just led to low ranking detectives going vigilante, and trying to just shoot their way out of a case problem, rather than actually try and work a case.

 

Including considerations to allow for DAs and ADAs to be threatened, and potentially killed for trying to prosecute a case will, once again, make an already strained group even more strained, to the point of absence. Why even get on the job when you'll just be selling out to threats from everyone? 

 

I could go on and on about how this is effectively suicide for LegalRP as a whole. This idea once again, makes sense when you believe legal and crim RP are equals, when in fact they never have been, and are designed currently to be asymmetric.

 

 

[KingJewMonaclu]

59 minutes ago, xXmrburnsXx said:

-1 by far. (I know I am biased as hell here, however I want to try and dissect this.)

 

The suggestion when first read makes sense in a whiteboard perspective. Opening the door to more action against the PD would make the PD on more equal footing within the city as a whole.

 

We're missing the other ways the PD, especially the Detectives Bureau and DOJ, is held back. Its already an underdog fight.

Legal RP is a very slow, meticulous process, with many, many moving parts not really visible to much outside the PD.

For example, Kirov Bratva takedown last year was a six month operation. It involved many people, including UCs, day in and out to find evidence, develop strategies on taking down individuals using such evidence, and then.... the doorkicks and property seizures, etc. It looks like maybe a 1-2 person job from the outside, but inside it can be over twenty people in some cases.

Once the doors are kicked and charges are filed, months of work gets put into motion.  This is part of the reason why on an average basis, organization charges/takedowns happen roughly 2-4 times a year. They're not exactly simple find, point, charge, PK sorta things.

 

This process starts with a slew of both written, and unwritten rules both IC and OOC. From faction consideration, operation planning (as strategies have to constantly be changed and adapted on the fly) , and execution involves many manhours of work, before any actual investigation even starts. Many times, UA tickets are opened for consultation before an operation is even attempted because if successful, we know the first thing that will happen will be a UA ticket being filed, trying to overturn it.

 

This is not even bringing up the concerns that many people have before even considering becoming or assisting UCs. We have had people threatened OOC, harassed, and blacklisted from practically every faction in town because of their choice to try going UC. The risks are present, even if the official stance is that according to the rules, they are currently lower-risk. 

 

There is already avenues for non-DA/DOJ or even non-PD characters have for going after potential dirty cops. An entire court system is present, ready, and willing (honestly begging) for civil cases to try and litigate issues. For criminal charges, if a dirty cop is exposed in a criminal case? The case is likely to be tossed via an impeached and shamed witness. The avenues are present, however are seldomly used. In the scenario of the 13 arrest warrants above? MAYBE 1 or 2 go to trial. 10 will delete their characters, 1 will just never get back in the server ever again, and the 1 or 2 going to trial are usually lower ranking, making the case more procedural rather than a true fight.

 

As the guy who has been helping run the Detectives honestly for far too long, I am aware of the odd balance the bureau has on the city. Go too hard, and the main purpose of the game is moot. Make it so that being a detective is a constant liability? The already strained bureau will likely collapse, and the PD in general will become nothing more than meter maids and whiteshirts who find a gun at Probationary to shoot people. I should know. Typhon servers allowed for PKing detectives and easier rules on raids. It just led to low ranking detectives going vigilante, and trying to just shoot their way out of a case problem, rather than actually try and work a case.

 

Including considerations to allow for DAs and ADAs to be threatened, and potentially killed for trying to prosecute a case will, once again, make an already strained group even more strained, to the point of absence. Why even get on the job when you'll just be selling out to threats from everyone? 

 

I could go on and on about how this is effectively suicide for LegalRP as a whole. This idea once again, makes sense when you believe legal and crim RP are equals, when in fact they never have been, and are designed currently to be asymmetric.

 

 

the kirov bratva did not take long the majority of it was just a guy UC and a wiretap and then I went and [REDACTED] and the don died mysteriously and the second don took a life sentence plea deal and they got to keep their property because [REDACTED]

 

 

part of the reason you have blacklists from UC work is because people are really mad about UC work being overpowered and there being no recourse so they get real big mad and salty and ban them.

 

Shockingly, people are frustrated because theres been a lot over the past few months.

they feel like they're being hit with 2 bit cases that have no viable end and they're getting too wide a target on their properties and HC when there's not even any tangible legal route to make in those regards, and they feel they're being continued to be targeted beyond the initial crimes asserted

 

Yeah, people are gonna be mad. This isnt a "Hey we should just insta pk detectives" suggestion; this is an assertion that it should at least be possible.

 

 

 

Put it frankly, you overestimate the importance of cop RP compared to crim RP. Yes, your operation took 4 months. Yes, you worked really hard on this. But the faction in a lot of cases is years old and you want to tear it down immediately. They should have a running chance at surviving.

Want to avoid the risk? Avoid the risky actions. Get good at assett protection. Enlist spec ops to do protection operations at 4 in the morning. I could literally make an entire document filled to the brim with methods of avoiding death, and you should reasonably be able to figure out how to do the same.

 

 

Your months of hard work is noble, I know because I did it. And if it was me at that time I would've said you're crazy. But with the outrage from the community, and seeing whats been going on where factions are getting fucked six ways to sunday en masse, this "2 or 3 times a year" seizure thing is hitting its quota very quickly, and its gonna burst the chart

 

You don't have to change your operations. You don't have to change who you target. Matter of fact, existing cases shouldn't be applicable. But in the future, you'll have to move like a detective and avoid death, and not just when you're in a faction, and you'll be a better detective for it.