Point Faction System in deciding coups

[chadvini]

I would like to inquire about a specific system within a faction.

Bare with me here
If I would create a faction, that I would like to have the principal of the people in a faction have a little more power, a principal where the people can speak up if they feel mistreated, I run into a problem. The problem I find is that %51 of High Command have to decide to coup against the current leadership, and should it occur that the whole High Command are all good friends with eachother and will never go against eachother (even for RP purposes), they can practically be assholes to the bigger part of the faction who aren't high command, ruining the faction. I was wondering if it then wasn't possible to do a point system with a faction, where instead of High Command deciding, every member has a certain amount of points in the matter. Eg:

High Command positions:

• Boss has 40 points in the say of the faction
• The Boss' 6 high command have 10 points each in the say of the faction

Not High Command positions, but still old and experienced members:

• Position 1 has 6 points in the say of the faction
• Position 2 has 5 points in the say of the faction
• Position 3 has 2 points in the say of the faction

If like in my hypothetical, the whole high command are with each other, they would have 100 points in the say of the faction. That would mean, that it would take 20 people with the Position 2, to equal their 100 points. So one of the sides would have to convince some of the not HC command to join them to go over the 100 points. However, if the HC are assholes to all the non HC members, then the High Command would have a tough time convincing people to join their side. And that way, the non HC members can actually start a coup and have the chance to PK the opposition, where the opposition then also has the chance to PK the *non HC* members. 

Also note, that in the instance that a shitload of people got the Position 2 and just abused it and trolled with a coup to ruin the faction, that the HC realistically would just kick them and not have to worry about a coup. 

An argument against this could also be that, if it's really that bad to play under this HC, that the faction would die out. But that isn't really a good solution, as you'd rather have interesting RP where instead of a faction fading out, people who cared for it and didn't abuse their power could keep the faction running and challenge the abusive HC.

[Canadian-bacon]

The only situation where HC would not matter is if they are inactive, then their participation would be disregarded.

As it stands, I understand the point you're making about people being friends. However I bring 2 main counter arguments.

1. People could just get a load of their friends to join as low rank factions and then take over as associates / soldiers, which of course doesn't have much RP involved!
2. HC of a faction being tight knit kinda makes sense when you think about it. Coups are rare for a reason generally, only if there is a big loss of confidence in the don and his actions should a coup take place, and I've seen these 'HC good friends' turn on each other in the past.

I think your idea, while having some spirit, doesn't consider that coups are not there to take over factions by outside people, as that is meta/powergame'd, but is to whack out a bad don, ergo the need for HC approvals.

[Diverge101]

Whoever’s faction this dude is in watch your back

[Canadian-bacon]

1 minute ago, Diverge101 said:

Whoever’s faction this dude is in watch your back

erm... metagame????

[chadvini]

6 minutes ago, Canadian-bacon said:

 

1. People could just get a load of their friends to join as low rank factions and then take over as associates / soldiers, which of course doesn't have much RP involved!
2. HC of a faction being tight knit kinda makes sense when you think about it. Coups are rare for a reason generally, only if there is a big loss of confidence in the don and his actions should a coup take place, and I've seen these 'HC good friends' turn on each other in the past.

 

Well, with problem 1. it could be solved with 2 major things. 
During a coup, there would be no more allowed hiring, and only after a coup officially ended would there be the possibility of hiring.

Also, the Boss/HC should be couped if they are too negligent to see who is being hired, and who has hiring perms. Obviously there is an already known contempt between HC and non HC in my hypothetical before the coup, so when under the time of known disconnect between the two groups, the Boss/HC would see that there is a potential mass hiring happening, leading them to kill the conspirators before any coup can be initiated. Hiring friends like that doesn't just go unnoticed, and if the people who are able to hire choose to go so blatant, then their inevitable downfall is their own fault. However, if the dissatisfied non HC would choose to be sneaky and not hire a bunch of people they can influence and that the HC knows they can influence, then there wouldn't be the problem of a bunch of new hire's taking the side of the dissatisfied non HC.

And negligence will lose confidence in the people, and like you said, that would lead to justifiable coup.

[Canadian-bacon]

21 minutes ago, chadvini said:

Well, with problem 1. it could be solved with 2 major things. 
During a coup, there would be no more allowed hiring, and only after a coup officially ended would there be the possibility of hiring.

Doesn't stop mass flooding BEFORE the coup is initiated

Again, the coup function is not meant to serve the take over of a faction, if the boss is wacked the next in line HC should take his place. That's what most coups end up being.
 

21 minutes ago, chadvini said:

Also, the Boss/HC should be couped if they are too negligent to see who is being hired, and who has hiring perms.

People earn recruit perms or simply lie to staff to recruit people, it's too abusable to FULLY blame it on the boss or don. While they do bear some responsibility about the happenings of their faction they still should not be subject to meta/powergame'd coups from outsides people. A coup is by definition an internal struggle if you are bringing in outside people to fill your coup numbers then thats not a coup!

I disagree, and think the fundamental issues this presents out way any current issues that may exist with the rules. I.e. they are fine as is, this is the status quo that's been maintained for more than 3 years.

[chadvini]

I mean I did say that the potential mass flooding would be obvious to a not-negligent-boss (not deserving of coup by the server rules; because they aren't negligent), and especially under tension, where the HC could just see that mass flooding will happen, and having the PK advantage, they could kill conspirators. That way the stupid move for the conspirators would be to mass hire friends, something the HC would notice, preventing mass hiring anyways.

I definitely see what you're saying in terms of HC taking over Don spot, as yes, even OOC friends can often turn on each other in RP, however I'm just more saying in the event that it is a super tightly knit community of HC. I also get that my argument might only be good for a very specific type of faction with a very specific management problem, and that the 3 year time this system has been in place it has served its purpose well.

I still stand by my argument that mass hiring can't happen if it is a competent Don, and that it would stay an Internal struggle no matter what, but the hiring thing is also kinda tricky.
You'd need to revamp the recruiting system entirely, with a recruitment permission assigned to a char. A member who is deemed fine to recruit would be chosen by the HC, and the admins/mods would give them the entry into the recruiting system. That way, maybe a person deemed good to recruit could simply hire without the need of contacting an admin, and instead hire outright via a hire function they were granted by the HC and Admins added to their char.

Then in my hypothetical, the obvious tension would lead a competent Don (not deserving of coup; because they aren't negligent) to strip away the perms from the conspirator char in their faction.


(Edit): Wanted to add that a Don might not see the mass recruiting in time before they have had the chance to kill the conspirators. In my opinion, still a competent don would've done something to prevent it, like killing the conspirator before anything can happen, especially during tension.

And at that point, the faction would have lost confidence in such a negligent Don, justifiably enabling a coup.

Edited June 16 by chadvini